Wow… So what you are saying is that you believe it is OK for us all to be forced to live by Christian principles as a matter of law (since you support the current state of the Republican Party, you *must* believe that, otherwise they’d kick you out), but it’s not OK for Christianity to accept Government money since it results in Goverment interference….

Short version: It’s OK if religion controls government, but not OK if government controls religion.

How typically modern Republican…..

As I recall, our Constitution (or, “just a d*^mn piece of paper” as George W. Bush refers to it) guarantees that neither shall interfere in the affairs of the other… That’s the USA *I* know…..

As a registered Republican, I could almost vote for McCain if he hadn’t promised to turn over the courts of this country to the religious right (that’s what the translation of “strict constructionist” really means)….. Guess I won’t be voting for McCain….

Excelent, I could not agree more. Have a great day.

I disagree, Cal. Many nations have been changed for the better when recognizing that the Church is not the enemy.

When oppressive governments that have tried to eliminate any mention of the Bible or God in their halls and institutions have opened their eyes and seen the works that the Church can do in terms of employment, education, social services, health, etc., millions of lives have been changed for the better in their countries.

Many in the U.S. have gone far to the left in their hatred for Christianity, and it is time that the U.S. government realized that the Church is not their enemy, just like many governments in other countries are recognizing this.

The problem erupts when government tries to dictate to the Church the type of ministry and a very narrow-minded view of the tactics or methods by which the Church should function.

You are right in your analysis that liberals will definitely attempt to use monies appropriated for Faith-based Initiatives to further the agendas of particularly liberal religious beliefs. This always happens.
There is no doubt that there will be attempts at quid pro quo awards for liberal churches who preach to their members for whom they should vote, even as we have seen that some churches in Chicago do this regularly, for which Barack Obama shows preference.
Even though Obama is out there promoting a faith-based agenda which the Democrats have vehemently opposed for as long as I can remeber, I will not vote for him on this issue, because I feel he is insincere and opportunistic spiritually. How one can call rural folks bigots who cling to their religion and guns, and then turn around and say, “but I’ll give their churches faith-based initiative money”, is pretty hard to give any credibility.

To combat this, such a program should have a bipartisan board to investigate appeals from churches that are denied funds for political or other reasons. Churches receiving funds for educational and social programs should also be required to have a Church Board in place within their membership body which is responsible for the use of these funds, just as most not-for-profit agencies do, who already receive funds. No “one Pastor’ should have full control without Board oversight. They should also be required to keep accurate records in terms of the individuals served by these programs, just as other not-for-profit agencies have to do this.

But allowing individuals to share their religious beliefs and spiritually minister to the persons in these programs should not be interfered with by the government, as religious speech is protected by our First Amendment. Churches should be allowed to administer these programs from a religious or faith-based view, if this is to be called a Faith-based Initiative Program.

Hello Cal,

If you like this help me promote it. Peter
http://www.americagovote.com

GO VOTE!
This is a great country! To keep it that way,
We each have a role and part we must play.
With different opinions, we won’t all agree,
Who to elect, but thank God we’re free!
So make up your mind and go vote.

Know what you believe and who you support.
And who are the judges you want on the court.
Ask the hard questions; then you must decide,
The person you choose. Let your heart be your guide.
Just remember you have to go vote.

The party’s important. Know where you stand.
But choosing a leader is more than a brand.
”One nation, united.” “In God we trust”.
He answers prayer, but remember you must,
Go pick up your ballot and vote.

Peter Enns Copyright 2008

bobcarp, 21st Century since WHAT?

Is it the fact that ‘more liberal’ faith based organization might be come involved with government the issue being spoken of here? As a faith based charity worker for many years, this is a difficult issue. Many times the charities are doing the ‘good work’ that the government could not do for three times the money. Feeding the poor, housing the homeless, helping the working poor. There are many government programs for this and it takes a huge portion of the national budget. By the time the government applies all of the red tape - many people are not helped. Many are, do not mis-understand me. I do not want to see government run faith based charities. There must be a way to apply reason here and get to a middle ground. The poor are always with us. Surely some amount of funding from the government to faith based organizations that have verifiable chritable records should be allowed. Minus the red tape. Reasonable regulation yes. The government gives freely to artists who make a passionate attempt to offend as many people as possible. Why not fund people who make a passionate attempt to help as many people as possible.

Cal get over it. George “I am an Evangelical Christian” Bush is the psoter boy for faithg based handouts. I didn’t hear you crying so loud these past eight years while he was compromising the church. Matter of fact, it looks like el Busho is not even mentioned in your little rant.

Hypocrites R Us strikes again.

Victor- Our founding fathers did not seperate church and state. They merely protected the freedom of religion and prevented a national religion. Since there were virtually no Hindus, Muslims, or Buddists on the continent at the time, its pretty clear they were talking about specific Christian denominations, with the same capital ‘G ‘ God.

Hello,

Part of the First Amendment separation of church and state. Need more be said? We don’t care of liberals or conservations are against it. It is in the FIRST rule of our Constitution, once again, with feeling separation of church and state. We are not a theocracy, we are a democracy. This is not a Christian State this is a democracy. And if the currency says “In God we Trust,” fine but leave it there. Historically is makes sense if you’re nostalgic over the past. Yet today, we need to passionately enforce the Constitution to respect the diversity of our country because no matter where your parents came from or where you come from, the principles of liberty are universal and our Constitution was written by people who were fighting for these universal truths.

That said, it is so clear that Obama is pandering to everybody and anybody who he can snag into drinking his kool aid. Folks wake up. FISA, now this peeps start thinking or you are going to lose it all. He is so desperate to get to the WH he’ll prostitute himself to the people that his hommie pastor Wright was lashing out to. Anything to get in at the expense of our basic freedoms.

Funny, religion has always needed Governments and money both. Religion needs Governments to attack others to ’spread’ the word of any particular religion and has needed money to make it so. As far as God, there is no such thing. 2008 - let’s shed the ties of imaginary beings and realize we’re in control, not to be run over by some man-made being and concept to explain things we now know are truly false.

If the churches would fulfill what they were supposed to do we wouldn’t need welfare or public schooling… But the churches are run by men, and greed has taken hold - in larger, extravagant church buildings, nicer cars for the pastors, and, oh yes ,we do have one mission is a not-so-poor South or Central American country (like Costa Rica) where we have a mission…
Dang liberals trying to take over our lives and kick God out of everything!
We were supposed to take care of the poor and educate our young, and minster to those who need it the most… Dan the atheist is right when he says that when the government gets tied in with faith-based charities it will weaken both…
Cal is 100% right.

The greatest act of loyalty Christian Churches could offer the Lord is to scrap their 501 tax exempt status, and come out from among them and be ye separate. This exempt status has been the golden calf, that needs to be pulverized to powder. The state has absolutely no business in the affairs of church life, and when the church bows down to the state and receives their exemption, it essentially ties the hands of the pastors to bring the whole counsel of God. If you don’t believe me, check out the rules with the IRS, to see what a church can and cannot do that has an exempt status.

Faith based programs…. whose faith are we talking about? Christian, Muslim, Morman, ….???? This is a slippery slope of trying to lump all faiths under one umbrella. The Bible clearly commands.. “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give unto God what is God’s”. I don’t like this idea of faith based programs and am even more terrified if Obama gets elected, what his definition of “faith” will be. God help us!!!

The fact that, in the 21st century, one could even believe in the existence in a deity (be it Zeus, Thor, Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) without a shred of credible evidence is an affront to reason itself. Faith is a byword for ignorance. Evidence and evidence alone leads to the truth.

Take a nickle from the Feds, and they own you. Happened to the states, and it happens to any church or other organization who takes a cent. Next, they tell you who you can and cannot hire to teach in your Christian school, and that you cannot present the gospel with kids’ lunches because it’s Federal money. To paraphrase, “Reaching for the government dollar is the root of the evil which will befall you” (1 Timothy 6:10).

Rogers put it well. There is no free lunch. If government gives individuals money they can tell the individual what to do. If they give church or religious organizations money they will start to tell them what to do. We will count on the money and bend to the governments ideas. Whether Conservative or Liberal, it is a bad idea.
The fed has never worked hand in hand with churches. The many states did until the 1850’s when the last established church was done away with (congregationalism in MA and CT).
Thanks Cal,
Greg

“If Barack Obama is elected, look for more liberal faith-based communities to get money from the government because they have been more supportive of him.”

As opposed to all the money GWB has given to the right wing faith-based communities????????????? What’s the difference? BOTH ARE WRONG. Religion and government should never mix - remember the burning times?

What a hypocritical article. I guess it’s only ok when some right wing nut job is handing out the money.

Thou shalt not commit religion.

I thoroughly disagree with my heard-earned money going towards any “faith-based” initiatives. Use my tax dollars to fix roads, build schools, promote health care - but I do not believe that the government has any right to give a penny of my cash to any church, no matter what they are supposedly going to use it for. I’ll make my own charitable donations if and when I see fit. The Vatican is one of the richest states in the world - let them send money to their churches instead of taking it from them.

Mr. Thomas,

Thank you for your commentary…..you have the issue nailed. This is just what the 1st amendent between Church and State is about ….not taking away our religious expressions publicly, but keeping the government out of the church and the church out of the government.

Mr. Obama wants control……he wants the government to control every issue….for a few chosen few, with the upper middle class and higher inome folks paying for those who want the government to support them. Then when he gets government control with him as President and a “democratic” controlled Congress, then he will be the power broker of it all.

Let the church be the church…..and please everyone that believes in God and in the power of prayer, please pray everyday until the election is settled, that Mr. Obama will not win…..and that we all get back to the principles our nation was founded on……With God, all things are possible…..we can do it!

Government gains power first by taxing it citizens and secondly making those same citizens dependent and beholden to the government to receive goods, services, or direct monetary payments. I desire a small government footprint in all aspects in my life and the absolute last place where government power should grow is with respect to the church. Once dependency is established it will not be long before the government begins to control the doctrine of those who receive the funds.

Americans are a generous people and I am far more confident leaving the money in the hands of my fellow citizens to make their own decisions on where to donate their money than forcibly taxing and redistributing money based on the decisions and priorities of government officials determing where to allocate the funds.

Funny how this sort of thing (the breaching of the supposedly sacrosanct barrier between state and religion) never bothers many faith-based conservatives until it starts being pushed by someone of the Democratic persuasion. Using religious organizations of any stripe as fronts for government-funded programs is a fundamental undermining of the Establishment Clause, plain and simple.

So, have to agree with you on this one, Cal, even your support for school vouchers (which often involves a direct transfer of government funds to religious institutions) seems somewhat contradictory here.

Well said Cal. I too thought the faith based initiatives were a horrible idea. Energy spent looking for a grant could be energy spent reaching the lost. Our master owns the cattle on a thousnad hills and He will give us what we need when we need it and without a form filled out in triplicate!

Cal, seems like you’re a few years late to this dance. Why weren’t you chiming in when it was Bush pushing for these faith-based initiatives? Now you just come off sounding like a sore loser and the election hasn’t even started yet. Here’s an idea you might just want to try on for size… Stop being such a blantant partisan. Seriously. It just makes you appear pathetic.

When the government runs the show aka education, welfare, social security, then it always gets messed up why would I want then in God’s bussiness?

Victor,

There are a couple points I would like to make concerning your comments.

You make the the statement that our founding fathers refused to establish any religion. This is only one side of the coin. The religion was already chosen and that was Christianity. There was never a removal of God from the state until recent times in our history as a nation.

God and the Bible has always been the basis of our laws, policy, etc. until people started to be more self-centered rather looking at the bigger picture. Look at the reason why Columbus sailed to find this land. It was to bring Christianity to this land, even though it was not the land Columbus thought it was.

Seperation of church and state has almost always been misinterpreted in recent days by judges, lawyers, politcians, etc. and they have used that misinterpretation as a springboard to try to remove God from as much of the public life as possible, perhaps to hide their own immorality and lack of security in their own faith.

Whether or not this country still is a Christian nation is yet to be seen. We started out as a Christian nation and if we still are then the people of God should “get off their duff” and make sure it remains a Christian nation. If we’ve travelled too far off the path, then I pray God will be merciful during the timeframe it takes to get back to being a Godly nation. I don’t want the same fate to happen to us as all the other nations of old that decided that God was no longer a necessity.

he’s right, if we let our faith just become another political issue, everything we believe will be cheapened. religion is in the heart, and the government should just let the churches do as they please, and be supported by the people.

There is no god (at least no real Christian god). And, to the posters that say we’re a “Christian nation” and one that understood, at one time, that the only true god is the Christian god, you should take a look at a Jeffersonian bible and note what he did to it. You should also try to reconcile your statements to Thomas Paine’s writings. Do you know what a deist is? Franklin did (he was one).

None of this matters though. There is either a real Jewish god that actually exists somewhere beyond the “firmament” or there is not. Given what we know today, I’m leaning towards not. It amazes me that Christians have no clue of the number of different gods before Jesus with his same story. Christians can’t see the similarities between Sampson and Herakles, Eden and Pandora’s Box, the Sun gods of Egypt and their gods of today… These items are overlooked, explained away and just plain ignored so that a substantial number of people can cling to ideas thousands of years old that have been disproved for hundreds of years.

Here’s food for thought for you and Cal regarding what we once “knew” about the one true god (remember, these men came from a time when the inquisition was ending):

Quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
• “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law”
• “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
• “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
• “I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
• “We discover [in the gospels] a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication.”
• “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
• “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

Quotes from James Madison
• “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
• “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
• “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”
• “Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
• “It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspicuously corroborates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho’ bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE.”
• “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”

Quotes from Thomas Paine
• “Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance.”
• “The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar…”
• “The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.”
• “Every phrase and circumstance are marked with the barbarous hand of superstitious torture, and forced into meanings it was impossible they could have. The head of every chapter, and the top of every page, are blazoned with the names of Christ and the Church, that the unwary reader might suck in the error before he began to read.”
• “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
• “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
• “..but the Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no knowing which part to believe or whether any…”
• “The NT, compared with the Old, is like a farce of one act…”
• “There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice….”
• “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity.”
• “As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men.”

Quotes from Benjamin Franklin
• “In the Affairs of this World Men are saved, not by Faith, but by Want of it.”
• “As to Jesus of Nazareth…I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity.”
• “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
• “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, ’tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
• “The nearest I can make it out, ‘Love your Enemies’ means, ‘Hate your Friends’.”
• “I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.”
• “My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist”

Also, the award for funniest misspelling I have ever personally witnessed: “Our Lord through the money changer’s out of the Temple…” wow, Tyler L. Homeschooled, were you? Anyway, let me drop some of that 1st grade knowledge on you; when used to indicate something being tossed, the word is spelled “threw”, as in, “I threw up after seeing how stupid the people on Fox News discussion boards are.” Put your bible down and pay attention in school, Jesus is not going to teach you trigonometry either, genius. Why is it that the dumbest people always have the biggest mouths.

Also, to the moderator, this comment is not unlawful, threatening, libelous, or obscene, so it not appearing will indicate to me some pretty foul racism/intolerance at your little “news” organization. Tell Rupert I said, “Arrrrrrr.”

I totally agree. What is being left out is that the Lord Jesus Christ warned us of this Himself. In Matthew 17: 24-26. Jesus tells us plainly that being tax-exempt makes us sons of an earthly king. The loss of power and effectiveness that Cal is talking about comes from the surrender of the power of a King whose kingdom Pilate had no understanding for the power and authority of an earthly king.

I like the segway about public schools. How is it that our supposedly 85% Christian believing populace send their cherished children to public school. There they are indoctrinated into the world of evil. You could even consider that true if you are an aethist. We are the parents of a bright boy who is in private school. Their he is taught right from wrong on a daily basis. Right from wrong based on the Christian beliefs. He is also taught respect and tolerance. Where is that in our Public Schools?

Not only that but Christians should be giving their money to charity organizations directly, and not to Barack Obama. This nod from Obama to the faith-based organizations is in fact a plea for donations from their members and supporters who should know better.

Can’t we just agree that Allah is the one true god and everyone should follow his teachings and guidelines? Jeez, it’s like you guys have never heard of the Koran! WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

P.S. Who is this Jesus character?

Cal, well said! I have been rereading Marvin Olasky’s Tragedy of American Compassion which I know influenced Bush. However, in general the concepts in the book have been missed. I am thinking the problem is that our Churches want the full tithe but don’t want the Church money used in the areas of health, education and welfare so that they have the full 10% for the more priestly purposes (although in the Bible the Priests go one-tenth of one-tenth = one percent). We are called to Disciple the Nation, which means we need to vote for limited government and simultaneously take back those areas of health, education and welfare from the state where Biblical worldview and transforming lives can be the norm.

Cal, you make a great point. That point is especially obvious when faith-based organizations who implement a program based on its religious principles (based on scripture and/or documented tradition), are told that they cannot discriminate on who they hire to implement their program.

Nevertheless, I think EVERY Bible-based church should apply for funds for things like summer Vacation Bible Schools and summer camps, especially in poorer communities. The curricula could be prescribed by church leaders or elders. Anyone hired who refuses to teach the content should be dismissed on those grounds. Otherwise, it’s a great way for unbelievers to be exposed to biblical teaching.

It’s a sticky situation but I’m wondering if there are ways to use the funds without the controversy.

Just thinking…

Cal,

You are altogether right. This nation is not a Christian nation anymore. It is in fact the 4th largest mission field on the planet. Africa will be the most Christian continent within the next 8 years.

To make it a Christian nation, Christians need to get off their duffs and assert themselves. They need to vote in Christian officials. And encourage their own congregations to pray that God would enable them to give more generously. If folks would just tithe, their would be a surplus of money!

You are absolutely right. God does not need the government’s money.

BOTTOM LINE IS; GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT EQUALS GOVERNMENT CONTROL.

I kind of see Mr. Thomas’ point that faith-based organizations shouldn’t have to jump through government hoops to get funding. The core problem is that our government shouldn’t be in the charity business AT ALL. Leave that to the private sector-to community and/or faith-based organizations and grass-roots efforts.

The government has grown too big and too invasive. The Bush admin. attempted to allow some monies to go back into the EFFICIENT faith-based organizations who are actually doing charity work, rather than political ‘front-work’ for liberal or at-best P.C. causes. ‘No-strings attached’ monies is ok. It’s my money anyway. I would rather it go to a faith-based abstinence program for public schools than to the Nat’l Endowment for the Arts where they pay ‘artists’ to pee in a glass jar or throw poop on a painting of the Virgin Mary.

Our GOVERNMENT shouldn’t be supporting charities OR cultural endeavors. That should ALL be done privately-either personally or corporately. The problem occurs when some small group thinks they should get the same size piece of people’s support even if the same number of people don’t support them. (think ‘fairness doctrine’). Businesses that don’t bring in customers fail. Charities that don’t bring in supporters SHOULD fail also…

If we could actually cut the government ties to funding all these things, it would help everyone and we could support what we, the people, think should survive rather than being TOLD what should.

Where was this article when President Bush introduced this concept? Now that Obama is on the band wagon with Bush all of you GOP guys are jumping ship.

Its God’s decision as to when and how to set up his kingdom….not mans. It is really sad when some Christians conveniently use government to push or “protect” their establishment. But when the pendulum swings the other direction…many Christians get ticker off. Any Christian that thinks that the USA ( with its pushing sodomy, sorry public school system, Iraq War, slavery, misuse of tax dollars, allowance of environmental terrorism and the systematic murder of millions of babies, slowly turning its back on Israel) can actually do anything right in regards to faith has got to be off their rocker.

Once the government gets its claws in the religious community the government claws all have strings(much like spiderman) attached. Those strings will be used to form a noose to choke the very life out of the church and diminish the very ‘power’ of GOD in that church. Not that it’s possible to diminish the real power of GOD, but in that church that substitutes GOD’s omniscient love & care for government funding will be saying to its congregation “GOD has to have help to meet our needs. We cannot perservere with only GOD guiding us…- we must have government help. But it’s only so “we can help more people.” Once that happens that church becomes dry bones in the wilderness.
A real GOD fearing, BIBLE believing, CHRIST centered church will have all its needs met by prayer, fasting, tithing, and hard work (oooppps there are two of them dirty four letter words - hard work).
thanks for list’nen.

Bobcarp. you’re an idiot. No none cares about your opinions. Take a hike.

Ask the people of Iraq how hard it is to separate Church and State. As you can see, that will never happen and the War there will never end. All because religion defines everything the government there tries to do. And the various religious factions are always at war with each other. So let’s just keep letting religions in the United States of America cozy up to our government. We could end up just like them if we’re not careful. Our forefather’s we’re very careful to keep Church and State separate. They were a very incietful group.

Totally agree. Our founding fathers refused to establish any religion because they were afraid that the state would pollute the church and the church corrupted the state. They had seen that the Christians clubbed each other to death in Europe and decided that it would not happen here by separation of church and state, freedom of religion and speech. Thanks to a secular society, religions have a chance to compete and flourish throughout the country. People can say or interpret whatever they want, but this is NOT a Christian nation any mean unless we want to go back and establish Christian as a national religion. But that wouldn’t never happen unless we want to chang the Constitutions or the Bill of Rights. What a great country!

Cal, I agree that the scenario you describe most likely fits many situations, but not all. I think to generalize in these terms as you’ve done implies that in order to accept the grant you will have to at some point, sell your soul in some way to get it. God can and does use various methods (such as fish) to supply our needs, so I don’t think your justified in condemning the “system.”

I would encourage those seeking provision from the Lord to prayerfully and proactively move through the doors God opens, but in no case should they compromise their faith; and be prepared to turn down anything that would even give off a whiff of comprimise. God will honor the faith that stems from His truths.

Keep fighting the good fight Cal! You’re making a difference.

To Bobcarp,
I am glad you have the freedom to dissent to Cal’s discussion on faith-based organizations. There is a factual history here about the success of faith-based organizations and Cal is right on. Government involvement allows for those who only pretend to be Christians to reap dollars from thier God, “Government.” Cal, very good observation and Bobcarp, Cal and I will pray for you and the day will most certainly come when you will cry out, Lord, Lord, Lord, help me……..you are very sad bobcarp.

Cal,

I have been a long time fan of your opinions. (not just because our names begin w/ the same three letters). I think we’d agree on most things. This is one I’d like to make sure you aren’t being too quick to judge about.

The faith-based and community initiative under President George W. Bush is doing amazing things in the United States and the world.

I want to clarify to everyone that it is not presently a “liberal agenda” that was thought up by Barack Obama.

While it has the potential to go down hill or even be eliminated in the future with new presidential candidates, for now it is doing really great things for the kingdom of God. You should be careful to call something bad, which may be one of God’s last main avenues in the Government.

Faith based and community initiatives works differently than most government grants. Let’s look at the prisoner re-entry program. Since it allows for the consumer that is being helped…say an ex-con…to make his own decision as to whether he’d prefer assistance from a secular psychiatrist, or a person who is willing to help him through his problems through faith in God. Since the consumer, or ex-con has personally asked for the faith route, the Christian program can recieve funding from the government and still spread the word of God. It isn’t the government establishing any religion, but it is the prisoner’s free choice to choose what will help him/her the most. It is still the character, passion, servitude and faith of the grassroot members of society that deliver message of hope to those who need it.

You posed the question, “since when does God need the Government in accomplishing his will”. You are correct. He doesn’t need the government, but he does use the government. Are you trying to tell us that you know how God works…and that you know 100% that God isn’t using this faith-based group to help and reach more people?

200,000 more AIDs free babies have been born in Africa in the last few years due to this program and men and women coming out of prison have used faith in God to help them get through their sinful pasts. This isn’t the will of God?

God doesn’t need us, or churches, but he does include us to acheive his will and purpose. I think that God was very ‘involved’ in the writing of the constitution and declaration of independence, and he has used that avenue to allow people to freely come to him for many centuries. We should continue to use whatever avenue that God provides for us to create a nation where people can freely come to him. How can we do otherwise?

Respectfully,

Caleb Medefind

Cal,

I have been a long time fan of your opinions. (not just because our names begin w/ the same three letters). I think we’d agree on most things. This is one I’d like to make sure you aren’t being too quick to judge about.

The faith-based and community initiative under President George W. Bush is doing amazing things in the United States and the world.

I want to clarify to everyone that it is not presently a “liberal agenda” that was thought up by Barack Obama.

While it has the potential to go down hill or even eliminated in the future with new presidential candidates, for now it is doing really great things for the kingdom of God. You should be careful to call something bad, which may be one of God’s last main avenues in the Government.

Faith based and community initiatives works differntly than most government grants. Let’s look at the prisoner re-entry program. Since it allows for the consumer that is being helped…say an ex-con…to make his own decision as to whether he’d preferassistance from a secular psychiatrist, or a person who is willing to help him through his problems through faith in God. Since the consumer, or ex-con has personally asked for the faith route, the Christian program can recieve funding from the government and still spread the word of God. It isn’t the government establishing any religion, but it is the prisoner’s free choice to choose what will help him/her the most. It is still the character, passion, servitude and faith of the grassroot members of society that deliver message of hope to those who need it.

You posed the question, “since when does God need the Government in accomplishing his will”. You are correct. He doesn’t need the government, but he does use the government. Are you trying to tell us that you know how God works…and that you know 100% that God isn’t using this faith-based group to help and reach more people?

200,000 more AIDs free babies have been born in Africa in the last few years due to this program and men and women coming out of prison have used faith in God to help them get through their sinful pasts. This isn’t the will of God?

God doesn’t need us, or churches, but he does include us to acheive his will and purpose. I think that God was very ‘involved’ in the writing of the constitution and declaration of independence, and he has used that avenue to allow people to freely come to him for many centuries. We should continue to use whatever avenue that God provides for us to create a nation where people can freely come to him. How can we do otherwise?

Respectfully,

Caleb Medefind

Man Cal, Obama and his team just cant win with you. It doesnt seem to matter what he says.
Do you really know what you believe, other than Obama = bad/evil/etc..?
I’m just about done wasting my time reading your columns.

Mr Thomas.

My feeling upon reading your opinion piece here is that you may be just using the issue not to point out a flaw in that system, but to convince readers that Senator Obama doesn’t deserve to wield such power. If your guy got 4 more years to do it, then I think that you might remain relatively silent on it, as you have since it’s inception.

I too don’t support faith-based initiatives where government is concerned. Let the churches take care of their business and the government take care of theirs. Not one of us knows which way God would prefer this to be so it’s rather presumptive of anyone to proclaim His preferences.

I agree with your contention however of this issue being used as a “political football”. That has already proved to be accurate as evidenced by Bush’s kicking it about. It’s hilarious that some of the respondents here are ready to shout their indignance only when it is evident that Senator Obama will do the same.

Cal actually got one right for as change…

I agree with Cal, but I will say that Christians who express agreement with him on this issue - and then turn around and show their pathetic dependency on the government by sending their kids to public schools - are being hypocrites. How about responding positively to God’s Word, rather than going with the flow of culture and rendering our convenant children to the secular state?

I was concerned about this from the beginning, as well. The Church has been attacked from so many areas lately that having ourselves be reliant on the government, to support our ministries, is not a good place to be.

I have one question though, why does a self-proclaimed atheist claim to have a better understanding about the Bible than a Bible-thumping zealous Christian? It’s because he really doesn’t have it and he really doesn’t want to have it.

But…but..but, where’s your conservative compassion, Cal? For God’s chil’run and all that? Whose gonna pick up the tab for all those newly minted shamnesty citizens Obama or McCain annoints?/s/

I think the problem is when the government started to replace the church and the community. When people depend on the government to provide for them it sacrifices their relationships with their family and community. Acts of compassion to provide for the poor and broken have been replaced by government mandated welfare checks.

I don’t think this was entirely the governments fault though. I think people use to be a lot more charitable and as they stopped giving as much the government started doing the providing.

If times ever got really tough for me I know I could always turn to my family, and for that I am thankful. But there are many who when times get tough for them know they can just get money from the government further eliminating their need for family. But it seems to be that people coming from close families live much better lives that are as influenced by drugs, alcohol, and crime.

It’s sad when you see the black community which use to be so close as families and have one of the lowest rates of divorce in America, now have the most kids that grow up without fathers. I personally believe this is because of government trying to take the place of religious charity.

I couldn’t agree with you more. Whenever an organization takes money from Ceasar, it becomes Ceasar’s employee. I seem to remember the Lord saying something about a man not being able to serve two masters because he would love the one and hate the other. Many may not be aware of this but in the wake of Katrina, the Southern Baptist Church alone provided more meals and donations than the federal government ever did and it was at ground zero from day one. This is only one denomination. God alone knows the amount of assistance provided from the Church as a whole, but it exceeded the government’s contribution and was provided more efficiently than the government’s assistance was. Do we want to make the Church to mirror the government or Christ?
With that, I would also add that it would behoove us to keep corperate America and large publishing companies out of the Church. In recent years, I have seen the Church becoming more of a market place than the Lord’s House. I have also seen our childrens Sunday school material becoming less about teaching the Bible and more about entertainment. Our Lord through the money changer’s out of the Temple, and we would be well served by actualy following His example.

gods are myths people. It’s the 21st Century. Let’s try to catch up.

Yes, but government is involved now in a big way with things that formerly were the province of organizations supported and operated entirely in accordance with conservative Christian principles. If the government intends to continue handing out tax dollars to accomplish those tasks, like teen pregnancy prevention, drug abuse intervention, homeless shelters, etc., I would rather they go to outfits that are overtly evangelical, as opposed to those that are secular. It requires backbone on the part of the Christian group to be ready to forgo funding if the government tries to rule out the Gospel, but it can be done.

Thanks Cal for exposing yet another extremely liberal agenda of Barack Obama that the mainstream press continues to bury or ignore. Enjoy the 4th!