Reply to Steph:
You just can’t accept it because you don’t like it… but that doesn’t make you any more correct. You dismiss my evidence with no refutation, no evidence of your own other than childish name-calling. You have no knowledge of when or where I went to college to get my degrees, nor by whom I was taught. You make yourself sound silly and uneducated.

Maybe that’s why your response sounds so naive … you tell me that I must have been taught by liberals feeding me their propaganda, then you refer me to history textbooks published before 1900 as if they are somehow more accurate than current ones. You’re just referring me to your version of propaganda. In case you didn’t know it, ALL history books carry with them the biases of their writers… some more than others. That is why I picked evidence not from a textbook but from one of your “liberal propagandists” : Thomas Jefferson himself. I submitted quotes from the writer of the Declaration of Independence (& our president) and also from our second president, John Adams, to prove that THESE MEN THEMSELVES said our nation was NOT founded with Christian theology in mind. This is not my opinion or that of some textbbok writer… it is in their own words !!

You asked how many founders there were ? There were many, and many of them wrote in a similar vein. Don’t take my word for it… go read them yourself… again, not in a textbook, but research their original writings. It takes time and effort, but then you aren’t dependent upon anyone else’s version of history… you see it through their eyes.

Take James Madison, the “architect” of our Constitution. If you’ve actually read the Constitution (I have, many, many times because I teach what’s actually in it, not what someone told me) you will see that the word God is NOT MENTIONED ONCE. Neither is Jesus. If these men were so intent on forming a Christian government, it would have been a very simple task to say so; these were some of the most eloquent men in our history, and I’m sure they could have found a way to express that.

The only mentions of religion in the Constitution are prohibitive: no religious test for office, no govt. establishment of an official religion, and no restriction on religious worship. PERIOD. Once again, don’t take my word for it, go read the Constitution yourself (it’s always good to learn new things).
As Nathan said, your response is really rather pathetic… you have no evidence or grounds to stand on, you’re just mad that someone can rebut your position with overwhelming evidential examples, and you respond like a 6-yr-old. Read some actual history and grow up. History (& the writing of the men who made it) proves you’re still wrong, but at least you won’t sound so silly trying to debate it.

Wow Ruth, really wacky/crazy/insane stuff you are saying there.

To everyone else (especially robert j smith):

I take this to mean that NO ONE will accept my simple challenge that I posted below. That being to give ONE, and only one, logical reason for believing in God and/or all this crazy Christian junk. I can only assume that the challenge has not been accepted because deep down inside, you all know there is NO valid/logical reason. Wake up. You guys are all nuts.

Obama is most definately not a Christian.. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing..A wolf in sheep’s clothing means he is posing as a sheep ie. christian but inwardly is a wolf. Matt. 7….. ..Another example of those who claim they are Christian but are really of the devil is in Rev. 13-11.. described as “two horns like a lamb but inwardly a dragon”..The two horns like a lamb means same as SHEEP’S CLOTHING..This biblical description of those who pose as Christians (sheep’s clothing) but are really of the devil applies not only to individuals but it also applies to the antichrist false messiah..
He too will appear to be a Christian and a messiah but he will be the devil incarnate…
This imposter will fool the entire world ,all THE ELECT OF CHRIST..
This imposter will set about to destroy the real truth..He will discount Jesus words by saying there are many ways to god.. He will say all men are the chrildren of god threby making the words of Jjesus into a lie.. matt 13:35-38…and soon he wil outlaw the gospel and claim allah as the true god.. get ready amertica .. It is coming

Steph,

“that you teach American history in our system today does not mean you know the truth of our history and founding fathers. it just means you got a degree somewhere and were taught by liberals feeding you their propaganda. Same with the texts. Dig out some history books published before 1900.”

Wow, what a pathetic response. I love that you dismiss someone who teaches American History and Political Science and who provides evidence as not knowing what he is talking about. Then you don’t actually provide any evidence yourself. You see, you use the word propaganda, but don’t even know what it means. Evidence is not propaganda—–someone spouting off nonsense because they “feel” it is correct (like you were doing) with no evidence is. So since you dismissed a college professor who teaches American History and Political Science who clearly does not meet your requirements for an informed person, what exactly are your qualifications to speak on the issue? Oh, and the fact that your pastor “told you so” doesn’t really count…just so you know.

Dave: In a free society one can make any statement they wish to; however to call Pres. Bush the anti-christ is a real, real stretch. One can emotionally make any comment; however such statements should be backed up with–shall we say FACTS!!!

Surely I am not the only one who has noticed the trend in our society of redefining words. Words like “marriage” and “tolerance” and “illegal” (as in “illegal alien) are at risk of becoming completely meaningless due to the liberal penchant for sticking old words with new definitions. And now this! Christianity has a definition, thank you, and while I have no problem with anyone who wants to invent a new religion and call it whatever they want, I would appreciate if they would not redefine mine! (history-making junior senator or no!)

to the poster who wrote ‘I teach college level American History & Political Science, so I DO know what I am talking about. Again, all of this can be verified by their own writings. Read Jefferson’s Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, his Notes on the State of Virginia, and Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason’

that you teach American history in our system today does not mean you know the truth of our history and founding fathers. it just means you got a degree somewhere and were taught by liberals feeding you their propaganda. Same with the texts. Dig out some history books published before 1900.

You’ve listed 2 founding fathers - how many were there?

to another poster - you do not have to be baptized to be born again. i didn’t know McCain was a Baptist tho. That’s not what i’ve heard / read.

and to another one - no one has condemned obama to hell (that I’ve read). people condemn themselves to hell - by their rejection of Jesus Christ. It’s always their choice.

As Christians, we are to know who is and who isn’t a brother or sister in Christ. Otherwise how would we know who to fellowship with? who to accept as pastor of our church? etc. Sometimes people outright tell you they aren’t… other times you know by their actions (way of life), their words etc. The Bible gives guidelines for knowing this.

Cal didn’t determine Obama wasn’t a Christian by some mysterious method. Obama himself told Cal that - by the answers to questions that were asked to him. He gave incorrect answers to rather simple questions that every Christian should easily know. No trick questions that I could see in the article.

i already knew that tho - by another answer Obama gave to a reporter (as if i didn’t know because he sat / belonged to that church for 20 yrs - I wouldn’t have stayed thru one complete svc). When asked about being a Christian, Obama stumbled a bit and then said “I’m a Christian… every night I pray to Jesus.” Well, wow - just wow. Every night eh? And proof that you are a Christian? Not. That’d probably be an ok answer from a 3yr old… but not an adult Christian.

Robert j smith,

Of course I do not presume that the universe sprung into existence from nothingness—that is the claim of the Christians (God snapped his magic fingers and there it was).

To answer your previous question…it is appropriate to think something exists when there is good reason to do so. It is simple really….one can derive this evidence through observation and/or logic. For instance, the bottle of water on my desk exists. I believe this because I can see it/touch it and also because it is much more likely that it exists than that it does not. For instance, it is possible that I am hallucinating and the bottle does not exist, but this is not incredibly likely. I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness and there seems no real reason that I would hallucinate in such a simplistic way. Hallucination possible? Yes. Hallucination probable? No.

Also, my claim is not extraordinary. If I called my best friend and told him that I had a water bottle on my desk, he would likely believe me. He has no real reason to doubt it. He believes me based on very simple evidence (I said so). A simple claim requires simple evidence. However, if I claimed that I had a magic water bottle on my desk, my friend would likely require much more evidence than my simple telling. An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.

I hope this helps. Essentially what I am saying is that evidence consists both in observation and logic. I hope I have explained my requirement to your satisfaction. I await your response.

After eight years of Bush the antichrist, Obama will be a huge breath of fresh air. He surely doesn’t think of himself as the Messiah, though many of his followers may, but he strikes me as a prophet. Many of us born again are pro Obama, having had the scales lifted. I am ashamed to have been so fooled. Reading the torture memos did it for me…

Nathan,

I’m glad to see that you are honest about yourself, this is good. However, I think you’ll find few people will debate with you if you do call names and insults, because people will percieve you as rude or obnoxious, and few people willingly engage in debate with people like that. (Although I see you do have one person picking up your gauntlet).

Unless your intent is really to vent your spleen (which is a valid thing to do by the way, vent away! It makes for an entertaining read), you might want to curb some of the insults and name calling, as it distracts from the points you are trying to put out there.

Lastly, my point was that the person was quoting established christian teaching directly from the Bible, whether you think the Bible and Christianity are BS or God’s Word. In your original post you seemed to be criticizing their lack of knowledge of their own religion, I see now (in the context of your other posts) that you were criticizing Christianity in it’s entirety not just their understanding of it, but that wasn’t obvious in your original post about the “be born again” quote.

And Cal is right, by the internal definition of the Bible regarding believers, Obama doesn’t cut it by his own words. And no, Nathan, I’m sure you don’t care one way or the other, but that’s your right.

Nathan, Challenge accepted:

When adressing the issue of the existance(or non existance) or something it is necessary to set ground rules..like playing a game of chess or checkers….you need to make sure you are playing the same game and by the same rules or there is no sense in playing the game….to this end i simply ask..what kind of proof is needed to prove the existance of something nathan? matter or any subject(ie the creation of the universe)and other objects cannot use itself to explain its own existance. This is logically impossible. You cannot be stating that the universe sprung from itself or nothingness are you? If so, i dont even know what to say….waiting for your response to continue..

Lynn,

“They were from the Bible, not something someone “told them”. You seemed to imply that someone made it up and that it wasn’t in the Bible, that’s all.”

Ummmm….errrrrrr……”in the Bible” “someone told me” are really the same thing. It is simply a matter of someone telling her from way in the past or someone telling her now. It is still just someone telling someone else some ridiculous idea.

Angry…yes, I absolutely am. Insecure with no real opinion, I certainly am not. I have put forth a challenge in a post below…I will bet not one person can meet this challenge and I am willing to debate with them on the issue as much as it takes. I put forward the challenge in the post I made to Jon Myers. I would love someone to take me up on it.

As far as name calling goes, I admittedly do partake in this. However, I do so somewhat justifiably. They make blanket statements with nothing to bakc the statements up. “Jesus is God, Jesus is God.” That is all they say, which really, is saying nothing at all. It is annoying and name calling tends to follow when I see these empty-headed expressions. Besides, I think comdemning people to “hell” is much more cruel than calling them a name.

Wanda Lynch,

Before you go assuming people are “lost,” you may want to know what you are talking about.

“What about the Ten Commandments, “love thy neighbor,” “go the extra mile,” and “honor they father and mother” (authority) protect the innocent and patriotism?”

These aren’t part of the Ten Commandments (besides honor thy mother and father).

Obviously you have not actually read the Bible or you would not make the claims that you do. Ignorant people lik eyourself ALWAYS say th eBibl eis all about love. Readit. Read it. Read it, before you go off spouting nonsense about what it is supposedly about.

I love that you think I am lost. I am lost because I don’t believe in invisible dieties and nonexistent 4th dimensions like heaven. keep deluding yourself with idiocy…see how far it gets you.

Nathan,
I was only responding to your assertion that:
You spout idiotic statements that someone told you in church and you sound like a completely uneducated hick. Just because someone told you it, doesn’t make it so. You strike me as the type of person who has never even read the Bible but professes allegiance to it.

They were from the Bible, not something someone “told them”. You seemed to imply that someone made it up and that it wasn’t in the Bible, that’s all.

By the way, you shouldn’t call people names if you want to be taken seriously in your posts. It is my experience that people call names when they have no real argument and are completely insecure about their positition, they put others down to feel better about themselves. I can almost feel your blood pressure rising as I read your angry words. For your own health, please take a deep breath, reign in your anger and express yourself. You have valid and valuable opinions, whether I agree or disagree with them, I’d like to hear those not your anger which detracts from them.

Every bone in my body tells me not only is Obama not a Christian, but anti American as well. This “working class white voter” along with my entire family, will vote for Mr Mcain or Fred Flinstone even, before I cast a vote for Obama.

“Sure some of these people will laugh and scorn because of these statements, but it doesn’t change my destination………..Heaven!”

“The day of reckoning is coming when they and all their New Age friends will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is LORD.”

You guys who say stuff like this are so utterly insane. YOU think the “end times” are near just lik everyone else in the past has thought about their lives. And just like everyone else, YOU are wrong too. I cannot believe you people believe this utter nonsense. Have you ever even attempted to study the Bible and Christianity? Have you ever looked at how these religions and religious texts were formed? You are pathetic.

Great Article; This is a time for all concerned with the future of our country to come together. Whether Republican or Democrat, we all need to think more about voting Christian than “Other”. In this case “Other” meaning Muslim. I can’t see how any sensible thinking Christian American could support Obama. Are there so many people in this country so blind that they can’t see the harm that would be caused by having this representation at our highest level? We need to forget about our political affiliations and vote “CHRISTIAN”. Walter Wallace Lexington, Tennessee

I am really worried about this election. For all born-again christians, I believe this could mark a huge milestone for us. I believe it is just about home-going time!!!!!!! Sure some of these people will laugh and scorn because of these statements, but it doesn’t change my destination………..Heaven! I dread to see the direction our country will go if he is elected, but I look forward to the direction that I will be going when Jesus comes back in the clouds to receive me unto himself as he has promised! All those who are washed in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, take a stand, pray, and vote! Our Lord will do the rest!
God Bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great article Cal. I am in agreement with you that Obama is off on his theology. Jesus’ claim to be the only way to God seems absurd to the post modern thinker. Yet, they contradict themselves because they live by absolute truth themselves. I will leave how many areas of life demand absolute truth to survive to the thinkers out there…

There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved….

To Sydney Trader:
What exactly is a “born again Christian”? Does this mean that no matter how nasty or corrupt or sinful a person is, he can wipe the slate clean just by saying “I’ve seen the light!”?? Is this why the so-called religious right considered George W Bush to be such a great candidate, forgetting and forgiving his drug-taking and alcoholism? And is this why you consider anyone who has ever taken drugs or smoked weed or been a heavy drinker to be unfit for public office unless they declare to the world that they are “born again”? Because that sounds like a load of hooey to me.

To Chris (and others)
You say that we have one of the oldest, stablest governments in the world - the US is barely over 200 years old, which is a baby compared with many other nations. You ask why it is even relevant to compare the US with any other nation? Because if we for some reason have taken on the role of “world leader”, we’d better know what the rest of the world is about!!
Trying to “spread democracy” has become somewhat of a joke, because after 17 months of just trying to choose nominees, then a further 6 months of dirty campaigning to come, followed by the most convoluted election process, why would any other nation aspire to such a thing?? One man-one vote? Think electoral college, etc. It’s a joke. And the day after election day, politicians start jockeying around for the next campaign. The millions of dollars just thrown away on these primaries could well have been used for health, education or roads.
But back to the subject of Sen Obama being a Christian or not: who is Cal Thomas or anyone else to make that decision?
We’ve all played the “telephone game” as kids - try it now: quote something from the Bible, pass it down through 10 people. What comes out at the other end will be completely different. Imagine what 2000 years of translation has done to a book that people here now quote as the “gospel”. It’s pathetic how religion, supposedly meant to help people spiritually, has become something to fear.

Thanks Cal,
You made it much easier to understand why Opra Winfrey supported Obama; you know, “Birds of a Feather” referring to their belief that all roads lead to Rome and their common refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah or recognise Him as the ONLY way to the Father. The day of reckoning is coming when they and all their New Age friends will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is LORD.

I am not a Christian but I do not believe any true religion supports racism, divisiveness, sexism, or hate of another. The Church that Obama belongs to, I say belong because I do not believe his resigniation is genuine, violates these beliefs. Furthermore Obama has spoken out against the Church but he has not publicly stated how his beliefs differs. For me I do not believe someone who belongs to a Church for 20 years and not take on some of its ideals. If he was so opposed to the ideals of that Church he would have left years ago. Therefore if you say he is not a Christian because he Church subscribes to ideals that goes against religious teachings and if you say he is not a Christian because he could have left a Church that violates such teaching then I would have to agree with you.

I enjoyed reading the bickering between you Christians and non-Christians aiming to bash your opinions down other people’s throats. It’s quite comical. The above article is an act of journalism. Writers take quotes and spin them in the way they see fit to create ratings. It’s like the gossip magazines. The only one’s who should care about whether or not Mr. Obama is Christian is God and Obama himself. That’s between him and the Big Man. Religion should not matter in how a country is run. Our founding fathers left religion out on purpose. Religion should be a personal matter, one between the heart and the Creator. There are many good people in this world who are not Christians and many bad people who are a follower of Christ. This factor alone is and should not be a sole determinant in one’s decision for political office. Sure, we want someone to represent our values, to be just, and someone we can trust our country with, but does the opinion of a writer at Fox News, one of our country’s greatest sources of news, ha, really matter?
Oh, and attacking someone’s viewpoint really isn’t Christian, now is it? Aren’t we supposed to respect one another?

It is written. When God hears His Word the Spirit in the born again person confims to the spirit the Word is of God.
Man unfortunately for a lack of knowing re-writes the script. My prayer has been God send laborers into the life of both Obama and Hillary Clinton that they come to KNOW the Truth and the Truth will set them free from lacking understnding, of the TRUTH because they really are acting out of what they know of the Truth, also the devil’s lie.

1 John 4:1 (King James Version)

1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

From what I’ve seen of national journalists or commentators, it’s not going to happen about asking him about his current beliefs or past.

I most definitely believe in Jesus and God’s inspired word of the Bible. Even though the book of Revelation doesn’t mention a Muslim as the anti-Christ but it sure seems that Obama fits the rest of the description of the anti-Christ.

Just my opinion and observation.

How can educated people really be so dumb? What about the Ten Commandments, “love thy neighbor,” “go the extra mile,” and “honor they father and mother” (authority) protect the innocent and patriotism? These central truths are rooted in the Holy Bible, the number one selling book of life and how to find purpose in life.
It is disturbing to see how our generation has inched further and further from knowing and recognizing truth, right from wrong, self-lessness, the undenible worth of life and grace. I am hoping and praying that there are still millions who carry on the American way of our noble ancestery and that the vocally loud and obnoxious “loose left” can be helped by Christians who carry these fellow Americans on their backs to the “One and Only Way” through Jesus Christ.
Poor Nathan, he is so lost (a previous blogger.) His response just screams, “I’m lost! Can anybody help me?” I can suggest the book, “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren. Read it and make a choice for divine wisdom and never be lost again.

Blessings

The nature of Christ’s salvation is woefully misrepresented by the present-day evangelist. He announces a Savior from Hell rather than a Savior from sin. And that is why so many are fatally deceived, for there are multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness. –Arthur W. Pink

Also a second response to Kay’s second response,

I didn’t question the president’s faith, just his morality and his using his faith as an excuse not to admit his failures & deceptions. (By the way, I voted for Bush in 2000, but not in ‘04… I don’t like being lied to.)

Here are some important points from the Senate Intelligence Committee’s Phase 2 report on the pre-war intel leadup to the Iraq war that was made public today.

–Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.

–Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.

–Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products.

–Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.

–The Secretary of Defense’s statement that the Iraqi government operated underground WMD facilities that were not vulnerable to conventional airstrikes because they were underground and deeply buried was not substantiated by available intelligence information.

–The Intelligence Community did not confirm that Muhammad Atta met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in 2001 as the Vice President repeatedly claimed.

Most people thought the war was justified because the information they based decisions on were the lies of the Bush administration. Well over 4000 young patriotic Americans haved died beacuse of these lies.

I don’t care what his beliefs are, I judge him by his actions & behavior and they are inexcusable. He will fair very badly in history’s eyes because once he is no longer in office he will no longer be able to restrict acces to other misdeeds of his administration and his legacy will fall even more.

Jon Myers,

Wow another pathetic Christian argument. “Humans are limited. We only live so long. We can only run so far. We can only lift so much. The part that neither I, nor you, nor Chris can comprehend, is that God is unlimited.” You are simply making blunt assumptions. There existed the universe before the earth existed, so God must exist——–wow…you don’t even have a slight clue on how to form an argument. The idea that there are some things we don’t understand does not imply that there is a god. Ridiculous, ridiculous. It is so funny, because you think I respond in a “rabid” manner. Yet I condemn no one to burn in hell for their beliefs like many of you. I simply state the truth which is that you have not one rational reason for believing in god. Not one…not one…not one. I would love to hear even one argument from you or anyone on this forum that is a rational reason for a belief in god. Mind you I will cut two arguments out now…so please no one include them. Faith is not a rational reason. By definition it is irrational because it is the belief in something without any proof that that idea actually exists. Also, “god of the gaps” is not rational, so please do not pester me with ridiculous nonarguments like that. Saying “I don’t know how this happened so it must have been god” is a juvenile argument that is one big hole. So, I welcome anyone to present me with one……just one on this forum. Oh by the way, if you want to use the argument Jon that complexity or intelligence cannot come from noncomplexity or nonintelligence, first you are wrong. Second, then god cannot possibly exist because there was no intelligence to creat him. So give me something that a freshman science major or philosophy major COULD NOT easily counter in two minutes. I beg of you.

In response to Kay,
I didn’t realize my reply was ugly, I was merely pointing out incorrect information. Now I will be somewhat ugly: You simply do not know what you are talking about. The founding fathers intentionally REMOVED religion from government. I have nothing against religion, I simply do not wish to live in a theocracy, which many of the religious right have been pushing for in practice if not in name.
By the way, I have voted in 8 presidential elections– 4 times for Republicans & 4 times for Democrats, so I’m not sure how liberal that makes me. On the other hand, the “liberals” freed the slaves (that’s actually what started the Republican party) & gave women the right to vote, so I don’t quite see how that’s such a derogatory term.
I don’t think I have any reason to address the relative merits of our current president’s morality; it has been self evident throughout his presidency, especially the doctoring of the intelligence that pushed us into this immoral war.
If I am a revisionist, as you say, then apparently so was Thomas Jefferson… quite a neat trick since he apparently started his revising (as you call it) before he even became president. The simple fact is he was NOT a Christian, said so on many occasions, and there can be no dispute about that fact. No amount of wishing or name calling on your part can change that.
I’ll just leave you with his own words (note the very last one). There literally enough of these quotes from many of our founders to fill volumes. Please read & learn some actual history before you decide to debate it with someone who has.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

Priests…dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

As a born again Christian, I am terrified for our Country if this man becomes our next president. I’m sure the Alquida fathers that say good night to their children think they are doing a good job making good people of their children also. False Profit is one of the nicer names for Obama. He is simply a liar to proclaim any affiliation with Christianity. I pray that God will enlighten him but mostly I pray that the Christian community will be enlightened to the dangers he, along with his political cohorts, could do to our country. I am a registered Democrat but I intend to change that affiliation before the next presidential election.

SC,

Tagging onto the end of myself…I am spewing no hatred at all. I may be calling Cathy’s intelligence into question, but I spew no hatred. She is the one spewing hatred. Her only comment is that people like me are going to burn in hell for all of eternity if we do not conform to her idiotic beliefs. That is some REAL hatred for you.

Summer Morrill Koch -

FYI - it was the Romans who first called followers of Jesus “Christians”

SC,

Where is my “hate”? I am interested to know where I spew hate. I call things like they are. It is lunacy to believ ein silly things like God and the Bible…that’s it. there is no hatred there. It is just ridiculous.

Lynn,

Obviously you missed the entire point of what I was saying. This does not surprise me. However, quoting the Bible doesn’t exactly prove anything at all. Soooooo…….what exactly is your point? That an ancient text says some nonsense? Yippee for you!

Nathan,
I’m not sure if it’s arrogance or the rabid refusal to consider there’s something outside your own tiny body that causes you to respond with such vigor, venom and spite.

“Your argument is flawed because you assume nonintelligence cannot create intelligence. Unfortunately, with this argument, you have an infinite regression which calls into question things like ‘How then is an intelligent designer created if he cannot come from nonintelligence?’”

I’d like to address a couple of the assumptions there. First of all, nonintelligence CANNOT create intelligence. This is not an assumption, this is simply observable in the natural world. Are you familiar with the term “entropy”? It states simply that in nature, organized bodies tend toward a state of disorganization. The current theories about the beginnings of life on our planet are untestable at best, desperate at worst.
Second of all, I know it’s a little scary, but the world existed before you did. The world even existed before human beings did. The galaxy existed before our world was formed. The Universe existed before our galaxy did. Then even before the Big Bang, there was more out there than just our universe. No matter how far back you look, there was always something before that. And there will always be something after.

Humans are limited. We only live so long. We can only run so far. We can only lift so much. The part that neither I, nor you, nor Chris can comprehend, is that God is unlimited.

Nathan, I doubt statements of such hate like the ones you spewed at Cathy would ever come from those who submit to the Word of God and have true faith in Jesus Christ. Why are you full of such hate. That is okay I have more hope for those who get so emotional because of Christ’s message than those who just ignore it. Do you want me to pray for you?

For now you could learn a lesson from those other non-believers on here whose comments don’t result to attacks on those whose beliefs differ from their own. I guess that same statement goes to the believers. I know we often misrepresent Christ but that doesn’t change who Christ is because us iniquitous Christians who follow him. Please remember that, we don’t (or shouldn’t) confess to be better than any one else, we only confess that our Christ is above all religions and powers. I’ll quote again.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi

Nathan,

FYI:

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again”.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“AMEN, BROTHER CAL!!!! EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN!!! Keep up the good work. Thank you!”

Cathy,

This is the exact type of total lunacy that has other enlighten countries laughing at America. You spout idiotic statements that someone told you in church and you sound like a completely uneducated hick. Just because someone told you it, doesn’t make it so. You strike me as the type of person who has never even read the Bible but professes allegiance to it. You have probably read one or two chapters (if that) and don’t even know what it actually says. I love that people profess a belief in a book that was written by people who didn’t even know the earth revolved around the sun. You would think an omniscient being who decided to inspire a book that would save souls would have gotten his science a little more “spot on.” Quit spouting nonsense and start thinking. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Chris,

It is so funny when people like you write on a forum like this and actually think you know what you are talking about. “How you can present atheism, which stipulates that intelligence came from nonintelligence in terms of how the universe came to be, as more sensible than intelligence and design coming from an Intelligent Designer is beyond me.” Your argument is flawed because you assume nonintelligence cannot create intelligence. Unfortunately, with this argument, you have an infinite regression which calls into question things like “How then is an intelligent designer created if he cannot come from nonintelligence?” Of course, you, not having much of a brain will say something stupid like “God just always was” which really isn’t an answer at all. I agree that “God is dead” is dead. God never existed, so he cannot die. People with really tiny minds can never understand atheism because they still don’t understand that “ultimate purpose in life” doesn’t mean anything. People like you don’t get that there doesn’t need to be a purpose and that you aren’t really “god’s little gift from heaven.” He doesn’t have a plan for you, you aren’t special, and the “divine plan” woul dnot fall apart without you (because there isn’t one). I hope you do find my tone to be offensive because I mean it to be so. The world is chock full of nutcases like you and deluding yourself with fantasy doesn’t help anyone or anything.

Good job Cal. They all must think you wrote the Bible. God said His Word would not return to Him void; it would bless some and curse others. christianity is not a religion, it is a position “IN Christ”. therefore the world is divided into those who are ‘in Christ” and those who are not. Gene

Oh, I decided to post a second rebuttal to Dale:

First you didn’t read the quotes, did you? The specifically address the issue of NOT keeping God out of the govenment like you stated in your first post. And secondly, I don’t know how you can pretend to judge our current president’s faith. It’s is far more obvious than some President’s, such as Bill Clinton’s. Oh, I know, he went to war. But many times in the Bible, God sent his people to war. Sometimes it’s necessary. Yes, you’ll say, we lied to get us there. It’s a proven fact that both him and Blair relied on the same information that Congress had and they ALL voted to go to war. He wasn’t alone. Even Hillary voted to go! It’s a deliberate lie from the media that Bush decided to go on his own. Congress had the same intel info. But then again, it’s convenient to blame Bush since it’s an election year. You liberals are hopeless and will never quit twisting the TRUTH until it fits your idea of what’s right. I’ll pray for you.

In response to Dale ugly reply:

I read your post, and you can pick it apart all you want but call it what you will, I’ll call it revisionist history, but our founding father’s were Christians. You are trying to change history by picking apart wording that was different in their time and yes, Christianity has undergone transformations throughout history but this country was based on Christian principles no matter what you say to try to distort the truth. It’s a proven fact that liberal anti-Christians teachers make up the majority of our college educators and this just proves that point. There’s a reason for that and it’s called Satan. But I will not stoop to argue with you any longer. God says true wisdom and knowledge in only found through serving him and it’s apparent that you don’t have that.

I’ve been following this thread since nearly the beginning, and I must say that I’m very happy with the direction it’s taken. If I can just ask, though, how many of the people who claim it is un-christian to say Obama is not christian are, themselves, professors of that faith? (professor in this sense meaning one who claims belief in a religion, not in the intellectual sense.) Although it is definitely true that Obama’s religious beliefs should have no bearing on his candidacy, or indeed anyone else’s either, they do. People will tend to vote for those whose beliefs and opinions most closely match their own; Cal’s original point being that Obama is deceiving many voters by professing a belief in Christianity, while in reality he doesn’t believe in Christianity or in Christ’s teachings. Deception, although commonly practiced by most people in varying degrees, is not a good thing. In the field of religion, however, deception can often have deadly consequences, the example of Jim Jones and his cult, and the more recent example of the people in a doomsday cult in Russia who holed themselves up in a cave, resulting in the deaths of several of their members. Now although I doubt that Obama’s going to call for us to enter a cave to avoid the apocalypse, it’s more likely that he will not uphold the Christian values that many people expect.
Christianity is much more narrow than most people think. “Straight is the way, and narrow is the gate.” It’s both arrogant and unreasonable to believe that God has changed at any point, whether that point be 2008, 1776, 325 or even 0 A.D. We humans are the ones who have changed, and God has only ever given us as much as we could handle. The Law of Moses was given to humans by God, as was the higher law that Jesus preached and his apostles implemented.

The Bible as we know it today isn’t the exact same words as when it was first written.

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

If I evolved more than a black person doesn’t that make me superior to him, you know blacks are closer to monkeys than whites. That isn’t true if you believe in God and that he created us all and that we all came from Adam and Eve, so you see it doesn’t just produce hate. Faith in Jesus Christ is not and never has been a bad thing. Those who have true faith know they are wretched before God and are thankful for being forgiven so they do not think themselves better than others, including those who do not believe.

But many of you who dislike Christians are right in doing so. There are hypocrites and bigots and people who use the name of Jesus in vain and throw it around for their own personal gains. I think the problem is that many of those who profess to be Christians, more common in the south but exists everywhere else as well, don’t live as Jesus commanded.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi

Obama himself doesn’t profess to be a Christian in the traditional sense and I’m glad he doesn’t because I think some of the things he believes are against what us crazy bible thumpers believe. I would be more ashamed if he professed the same Christian beliefs as me but continued to work for the same things he works for.

- Susan

Nice way to judge Cal, huh?

Cal Thomas speaks the truth.
Regardless of what political persuasion a person has their relationships with God supremely effects all of their decisions.
Righteousness (God’s righteousness through Christ evidenced in our walking in the right paths) exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people wrote Solomon many years ago. That ruler knew that without God’s blessings any nation is headed for self-destruction.
Choosing Obama, who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, is a recipe for disaster for America and the world. Obama believes in killing babies through abortion, associates with church leaders who hate America and secretly desperages people of religion as weak and inadequate. He is masquerading behind a facade of “change” that is a false hope based on deceit, delusion and distance from an abiding relationship with the only one who can protect, bless and strengthen our nation.

“Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it. Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchmen keeps awake in vain.” (Psa 127:1,2)

In response to Jay’s rebuttal:

Sorry Kay,
Apparently in your rebuttal to my comment, you didn’t read very well. I never said the founders didn’t believe in God. I said they were not Christians. This is well documented; they were Deists: they believed in a Creator, but they did rejected the divinity of Jesus, the divine inspiration of the Gospels, and flatly equated the concept of the Holy Trinity with the mythology of the Greeks & Romans.
By the way, I teach college level American History & Political Science, so I DO know what I am talking about. Again, all of this can be verified by their own writings. Read Jefferson’s Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, his Notes on the State of Virginia, and Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason.
Next time read what I actually said, not what you saw.

Regardless of whether you are Christian or not, Obama professing to be a Christian, and yet denying the very thing that makes one a Christian is double talk, pure and simple. Mr. Thomas merely pointed this out, and many of you are slamming him for this, and calling him all sorts of names, questioning his credentials, and the like. This is not a personal attack on Barack Obama. This is a well written piece. To be considered a Christian, one must believe in Christ as their personal Savior, who cleanses them of their sins and makes them righteous before God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three in One. If you do not agree with that, you are not Christian, despite what you want to believe in this postmodern world. You cannot change a definition of something just because it does not fit what you want it to be.